"It works for wormholes, so it should work for nullsec. Right? RIGHT?"
lol no.

anyways, reading this little blog:

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3235
Null Sec
PVP: 7,061,988
PVE: 568,353
Total: 7,630,341

Wormhole Space

PVP: 377,786
PVE: 162,126
Total: 539,912


so wormholes have 1/4 of the population of 0.0 but 1/20th of the PvP action
and certain members start threads about other secstatus places being too safe

how embarassing

Local isn't the greatest foe in 0.0 causing the lack of targets - the massive blue lists are.

All removing local will do is cause spamming of the directional scanner by everyone, putting more load on the server. Maybe a delayed local based on the sec status of the systems could work (with 1.0 being instant and gradual delays from there).

In a place where alliances hold systems within wide areas of space.

The "intel channel" could help chain the existence of some fleet further or somewhere within the vicinity, or even when it's not. These often promotes fights, since people can just come in to a space owned by alliance X and the alliance X can go and meet those players.

There's also that random roams where we gauge viability of getting fights within a system by quickly skimming through local, yes dscan can do the same, but with only dscan, we can't tell the difference between whether someone is docked (unless we can be bothered to dock aswell) or just aren't there at all. There's also the issue with 14.3 AU range with dscan for huge systems, while it doesn't really matter if we intend to scan down someone, it made a huge difference when we're just trying to grab a quick intel.

Some other stuff that allows identifying known players in local can also promote fights, or other things like local spikes on certain systems or quickly skimming down where the enemy fleet's going or where they are at the moment. This cannot be done without local. Even Dscan won't be a viable tool to deal with this kind of problem.

Because the roaming gang relies on local to find things to kill. Do I have to draw a diagram in crayon?

You mean the scouts who are looking at local to see whether the system is empty or if there's a target?

Has nothing to do with scouts. If you read and understand what I (or we) was trying to say; scouts is an active role, in a place where contesting territories and promoting fights becomes a lifeline and where living condition both pve and pvp are required to keep people to stay, it's not as simple as "get better scouts". What I stated previously was passive intel that promotes/the reason behind fights.

We use scouts in active fights, many of them, some of them are even well known for their scouting capabilities and probing the right targets, but that's a different case. If those are what you referred to as "scouts", then you don't understand what was the reasoning behind why local is needed in nullsec, at all.

That second part of "tell them your coming" is just silly. If someone comes to a target system just to harass or getting gfs (or some other reason), do you really expect them to contact us, everytime? that's assuming they know who to contact, also assuming that they can be bothered at all. We do that sometimes, provoking people to actually undock and fight, but that's also a different case. What next? we need to ask permission and be as polite as possible when invading someone's space in null?

Remove local in null is like make WH entry static+never deplete, SCs can be cyno'd in, Bo's and reccon fleet able to be cyno's in.
Are you ok with this? - because it's exactly what you're saying, just in case you haven't noticed yet.

you don't understand. Local is like Pride. its a weakness that can be exploited. Its just understanding how to exploit it but i dont give free advice ;)

Your scouts drop probes to look for targets when local is already telling them there's nobody in the system?

Nullsec are not WHs, stop comparing these two. As for nullsec people won't last a week living in wh? you're dead wrong. I played in WHs before and I survived just fine, I won't say I've actually "lived" there for an extended period, but I can imagine what it's like. But that's irrelevant, I have friends who live both in null and WHs (who were nullsec inhabitants in the first place), we have a WH group/corp in the alliance and they seems to be doing fine as well. The point being, WH is not more :elite: than nullsec, neither does nullsec more elite than WHs, both are different and people chose between them because they want to, nothing more.

As for "work hard", you really, absolutely sure that the 'effort' to invade, conquer, manage, organize and defend a space is not "hard work"? as oppose to living down in a hole for the purpose of grabbing as much isk as possible? The difference between nullsec and wormhole people are very substantial. Most people I know who have gone to WHs, goes there because they either want more isk or they love exploring the 'mysterious space' of wormholes and all it's intricacies, while some people I know does go there to pvp, they're very rare when it comes to pvp as their first motivation; in contrast, most people who joined a nullsec corp/alliance, their first objective is almost always, to shoot stuff or be involved in sov warfare (which is also pvp, on a bigger scale); I literally, have never met anyone who joined a nullsec corp because, say, the spacerocks are better here, or want to do trades or do nullsec exploration, there are people who has those motivation ofc, but it's not the majority, unlike wormhole players.

A better compromise would be to add a skill to the game that hides you from all local, in all sec, until you chat in local, then you'd appear on that system's local window.

Multiple reasons. It's impossible to hot drop in wormhole space, and it's impossible to catch ratters who are watching dscan carefully unless you have previously already bookmarked all of the sites in a wormhole. It's also much easier to secure and guard a wormhole space system and any incursions are likely to be much smaller and less organized.


But why do I bother telling you all this? It's not like OP would ever possibly change their mind. They seem to think that reciting key rhetoric over and over again somehow presents a tangible argument.

yeah i'd love to just park a cloaked hictor on a beacon and be absolutely undetectable when somebody shows up to scout it, waiting for something to come through so I can decloak, light my cyno and drop my nyx on it

i'm sorry if i disagree with your idea that everyone in nullsec should be required to fly around with a fleet on standby waiting on a titan

This will quickly be solved as people simply stop living in nullsec.

So every alliance in the game docks up when you come around? Or only in the area you live?

Here's a thought, if people wont fight your in your area hows about you take the fight to somewhere you can get the fights instead of complaining about it?

Removing local would be the worst idea ever and would further isolate null sec from the rest of Eve.

Dragoons.

0.0 stagnation is not solved by allowing hundred man covops fleets to roam around completely undetected and unhindered killing everyone in their path.In fact there are many other far more viable ideas on how to solve the 0.0 stagnation.

Anything from covert POSes that can be placed anywhere in a system and be used to allow smaller corps to move more freely and live & disrupt life in hostile space to removing some of the 0.0 chokepoints so that PVEers and PVPers willing to risk going in to hostile space can do so with less hinderance. Other people suggest a bubble nerf.

Not having local in Wormholes only works because there's a limit to how many people can enter through that WH before it collapses. And because the most profitable way to do PVE in WHs is to first scan down all the sites, then close all exits and do them quickly as a group.

In fact, if you wanna revitalize 0.0 look in to adding more mission agents for all of the different factions out there. And better ways for smaller corps to station themselves and maintain life.

The solution to 0.0 stagnation isn't to make it more risky it's to make it more comfortable and easier to live in. If you could easily set up the logistics needed for a 0.0 operation with say a covert POS worth 1b and a covert minijump-industrial (50k m3 can jump a max jump distance similar to current blops) worth another 1b or so. Then suddenly you can move past the 24\7 entry system gatecamps with ease, set up shop in one of the less populated systems in one of the larger alliances turf, rat to make money, jump your loot and supplies in and out and form a life for yourself.

Yes this will make it way easier to avoid PVP, but PVP will still be necessary in order to remove that solo PVPers that constantly camps out in your system or a small gang that wants to rat where you decided you wanted to live.

This way, blobs are easily avoidable (100 man gang jumps in to your system, you just warp away, 10 man gang jumps in you kick their asses), small gangs are profitable (ratting + PVP + safety), nullsec gets populated and chokepoints loose some of their value.

Removing local is just the usual excuse used by retards that don't live in it for real.

-From someone who currently solos lowsec and nullsec and makes shitloads from doing so.

Bahahaha. I'm sure you have plenty of nullsec experience. Your combat record definitely shows this.

I don't care about stats. If you had been killed 400 times in nullsec and killed 10 ships in the process, I'd be fine with that. The point is that it seems I have enough fingers and toes to physically count how many skirmishes you've been in.

From my experience, which alliance would not care if he had?

Local is just as useful for the hunters as it is the hunted. Local is not a problem there's no targets because people can't live their. The areas are used as PVP arenas while everyone makes their money in highsec. People have been forced from their homes and into highsec. All you've done in your post is shown that you have no idea what the problems are and are incredibly naive.

So lets go over the problems:

1. Risk : reward has been trashed to cosset highsec (Mining barge EHP buff, aside from Skiff),

2. Sov is broken/terrible,

3. UI is getting better but could still use more work (less spreadsheets more spaceships).

Fix those and you solve the majority of the problems the game has.

Bring an alternative (without sitting 23/7 at a gate watching for flashes).

That's also pretty pointless.

*+1 in the system*
*I warp to POS*
Inquisitor Kitchner> Who's there?
Ally> Only me friend!
Inquisitor Kitchner> OK thanks bro
*continues ratting*

Tell us all how your probes gather intel on people sat in outposts again?

Blinding everyone is just "short sighted" :)

Seriously dumb solution to a problem.

Since no-one in their right mind would rat or mine or whatever in a system where 4 or 5 people -úcome and go all the time" then they are probably stupid enough to get caught now too.

You honestly need to sit down and have a proper think through about what you suggest from all angles. Removing local or even the player list doesn't help small roams. How on earth would you know when someone is in the system? Even if you did know they were there you might hunt them down to only find its an ally anyway.

Of course the counter would be to have those details to show up if you can someone down. That means your elite ~wulfpax~ gang of 5 people now needs to drop one of your combat/EWAR ships for a scanning frig that doesn't do any DPS.

You could make it so only cloaked vessels don't show in local, but I fear it would just result in a massively overpowered system.

"Please mister CCP, cover up for my inability to catch ratters."

I do support more challanges in Evil-Online. But what will happen when there's no local? People run in cloak fleets all the time for the lols. Why? Because: not in local and not on dscan is pure win. And THIS will ruin null-sec completely.

2 solutions to this:

1) Show up in local only when gate cloak wears off
2) more people in nullsec

Your suggestion will basically bend the daily population even harder over the nearest kitchen table, pull its pants down and go to town. It's a bad suggestion.


It's almost like you don't think about any consequences to your suggestions, whatsoever.

Spoken like a true hisec person who hates nullsec.

The only reason it's "too safe" is because a vast majority of carebears have moved to hisec to make money there instead, and your suggestion will do absolutely nothing to fix this problem, it'll just exacerbate it.

It's a bad suggestion.

So what's your suggestion of a replacement tool, then?

That's not a suggestion, that's a joke. Try again.

It doesn't fix all the problems, it removes any useful information could possibly think of, except for in systems with nobody else in the system.


Yes, it does. The number tells you absolutely nothing useful except if you're in a system with nobody else in it.

This replacement mechanic is a joke, try again.

Yeah, let's use scan probes and dscan in every single system we pass through trying to find ratters that aren't going to be there in 9 out of 10 systems at least.

Confirming that the way to encourage people to go to nullsec is to make every aspect of life there as frustrating and time-consuming as possible.

Are you paying attention at all? Removing local will also make things a hell of a lot harder for people who want to find nullbears and kill them. Is that really what you want?

So what you're saying is people should have to safe when anyone enters a system, red or blue.

It's "ignored" because it's a complete joke of a suggestion.

Massive burn dude.

Nullbear, zing!

let's see Zim come back from that one!

No, there's not a problem with local, except for people who are complete and utter failures at ganking and just wants CCP to give them an extra edge, without contemplating the effects it would have on people trying to live in nullsec.


The fact of the matter is, you have absolutely no good argument against local, other than "hurr you're a nullbear durr". And I'll just have you know, it's not my responsibility to come up with a counter-proposal to your awful suggestion, it's your responsibility to come up with arguments for your terrible suggestion, and we've debunked those arguments thoroughly and repeatedly.

And just to be thorough, I'll reiterate: the only thing your suggestions would do is depopulate null even further. You can ***** and whine as much as you'd like about "hurr nullbears are cowards", I couldn't give less of a flying ****, I'm making more than enough isk in hisec on my hisec char that I don't have to log in to do anything in nullsec other than undock, take FC's orders and fire when told to fire, then dock back up. And that doesn't require local in any way, shape or form.

Implying local needs fixing.

hm, Solar Citizens seems to eat approx 400 bil a month in ratting losses every month

but i though local made 0.0 residents invulnerable


edit: hahahahaha

probably far less of them would die, if wormhole's 1/5th the ship loss rate of nullsec is any indication

Wormholes do have local, it's just delayed until someone is daft enough to use it. There is a lore reason behind it to, [rp] There are beacons in known space that are legacy items from when the gate network was built, these interrogate ship transponders to show pilots who are in local, in wh space there are no beacons because they are unknown space and nobody has built any because capsuleers don't have the technology to do so, when capsuleers can build their own gates they will have the tech to build the beacons [/rp]

It's a whole lot easier to control traffic in and out of whs via the mechanic of closing any incoming k162s and only warping to and thus spawning your static exits if you need to (this was the case when I was doing whs, some people will say my understanding of the mechanic is wrong but I can only go on my own experience), therefore the lack of instant local is a minor drawback. In hi/lo/nullsec you don't have the luxury of being able to close exits in this way, hence bluelists, gatecamps, local being used for intel and corp/alliance intel channels.

TL;DR whs have delayed local, and it would be a dumb as a box of rocks dev who removed it completely from any area of space.

So what's changed to enable me to park a hulk in a belt and go AFK for a few hours?

Again, you are talking highsec, this is a change to low and nullsec compared to...


low and nullsec today.

It is extremely safe to PVE in low and nullsec today, removing local would make it less safe, not more safe that some argue which is complete BS.

Nothing, because I'm AFK.

You might want to grasp harder at them straws. I don't bot, but feel free to tell sreegs I am, I'm sure it'll end well for you.


What? Is it an impossibility to go AFK to make dinner while in nullsec? I mean, it's so safe and all.

"waah the argument isn't going the way I want it to, I'll pretend to ignore you now"

Trolling. It's happening.

He's moron, ignore him.

Keep in mind this thread is based entirely around OP complaining about use of player-maintained intel channels.

So you come up with an idea which means null would contain basically nothing but fleet fights, bots and ... that's it. If there'll even be bots there, if they aren't moved to hisec as well.

I see.

You should probably ask some of the people that make living in nullsec statistically five times as dangerous as living in a wormhole how they get around it.

"Your idea isn't sound, here's why."
"No, my idea is sound." No explanation.

What part of "nobody is going to rat in nullsec anymore" don't you understand?

Nah, because there are easy workarounds to local. If you want to look at 100% safe bots, look at hisec. Especially after retribution hits.


Yeah, let's imagine how much fun it would if it was required to have one person sitting on each gate and each WH entrance, and the only thing they could do was stare at the gate for hours on end, for no pay.

I literally cannot imagine a more fun way of spending my time in EVE. Hoo boy.


And bots would still be better equipped with dealing with that situation than humans would. Your point?

It's almost as if I didn't just say exactly that.


Payouts in WH are higher, and there's less places which you must keep an eye out on. You also don't have the threat of someone logging in a char they moved in a day ago, tackling you and cynoing in enough other people to kill you off well before anyone has any chance of reacting.

Huh, when did WHs get cyno abilities?


Sounds like you should make a renter alliance and give your idea a try, then.

i am disappointed in EVE !

oh hey its another ostrich.

It's almost as if you've no concept of just how bad the monetary inflation is in eve, yet wants to make it even worse. vOv

You are a moron. What do you think happens when you make rats pay out 20x more?

It's obvious you're either monumentally inane or a pretty damn bad troll who knows no subtlety.

I thought you were full of **** before, but now I know for sure.

What your telling us, IRC specifically the numbers will be different for other people but it will be similar, is to dedicate at least half of the people who are online at any one time to sitting on their nuts at a gate doing pretty much nothing for hours at a time. You also suggest to pay them with money we don't have and will especially not have since all these people aren't making any money for us. Also note that not every Alliance is sitting on stacks on Tech or R64s, in fact most of them aren't.

I think it's been made pretty clear that you don't know **** about null, and you can be safely ignored by all.

various intel gathering tool to

Let's have a look at my arguments so far then:

1) We can't increase nullsec payouts past its current level, because the monetary inflation in eve is pretty goddamn bad.
2) We can't decrease hisec payouts because hisec pubbies are so used to the current hisec payouts that they'll cry bloody murder if anyone even thinks about doing anything to L4s
3) Most people who live in nullsec have moved their isk-making alts into hisec, because hisec pays out so well compared to nullsec, especially when comparing effort levels, that hisec makes sense to use instead
4) Removing local, without replacing it with a similarly useful mechanism, or by effectively requiring that at least 1 person watch each entrance (gate, wormhole) and have other people spread around the entire solar system so you have perfect dscan coverage in case of people logging in (and, of course, cloaked ships don't show up so you don't actually know if it's safe to do anything), will only exacerbate the current problem of nullsec being more or less a complete wasteland.
5) If people absolutely wanted to live somewhere where that sort of effort was required, why wouldn't they just move to WHs, where the payouts are actually scaled up to compensate for the extra effort and inherent risk?

Now, which part of that is in any way, shape or form "bat **** insane"?

No, it is various. It is more than 1.

Local just tells you if some one is in systems.

Player ran intel channels will (hopefully) tell you what they are flying and if they are notorious hostiles.

The in-game character info gives a lot of useful info too.

Evekill and the like will tell you if these players have any serious PvP history, what they tend to fly and what their typical targets are. Very handy for when you want to set up a trap.


The proper application of all these tools is what keeps me relatively safe when I rat and haul cargo. I would relate some funny anecdotes about players who tried to rely only on local, but I doubt you have enough nullsec experience to get the jokes.

No because we're bloody blobbers, we can blob the gate rite

Guiz?


Hey listen. I got a story about the time we bubble camped the BARK BARK

Yeah, see, that was a nice example of a sarchasm post. Please don't fall in. :ohdear:

Look at it however you like, but the fact remains that Local is the primary, and by far the best, tool used dock mining-bots in Nullsec, and back to my original point, botters heads will explode if Local is removed, the QQ will be even worse then tears over AFK cloakers.

Bots have the patience to spam DSCAN every 5+(1/1+RNG) seconds for as long as necessary. Do you?

Sorry, I am leaving the thread now, did not mean to interrupt your "heated debate"

Interesting theory. Care to back up that allegation, or are you just rumormongering?

So what you're saying is, you've absolutely no proof for any of those two allegations, and you're just rumormongering.

Answer me this if ccp was to remove local and give u the tools to effectively scout your space in a timely manner would u go complain still.
Where you had to apply effort to get your intel and the game did not give it to you freely.


I'm going to say yes.

Bad at reading, you are.

No sweetie, you just really suck at making your point.

It's be funny if it wasn't so predictable. Post on your main character then if you have all this null sec experience.

Although you wont, because you don't.

Think this thread ceased to be yours about the time you stopped reading people's posts and just replied with what you reckon they were probably saying instead of what they were actually saying.

And with regards to local, so is null sec (except for one very minor detail covered in my signature).

You mean the parts that make W-space local incompatible with nullsec mechanics? Makes perfect sense to those of us that actually live in nullsec and understand it, but the rest of you seem unwilling to accept the facts of the matter.

It's almost as if I didn't just tell you exactly what everyone in nullsec would do if this were to happen.

Aaaaand you're still depopulating nullsec even further outside of fleets.

You're still depopulating nullsec.

Now I don't know about you, but I would've thought getting more people into nullsec would've been preferable to driving more out.

Like I said earlier, he talks a lot about "gathering intel", i.e. when fighting a war, he says absolutely nothing about living there.


Oh, I read it just fine, but no matter how many times you harp on about it, it does absolutely nothing for people who want to live there, which means it's a bad solution. Come back when you've thought of something to make it actually work for people who live there, as opposed to just run after a fleet.

why do you feel entitled to risk-free, easy-mode cloaky PvP?

Ah yes, I'd forgotten that bit. Kill a fully tanked out carrier in 4 minutes, wasn't it?

I wouldn't mind it if CCP actually made some sort of hologram style CQ war room skit, where you could see both friendly and hostile towers and ships, as long as the system was upgraded to yield this information, but I do not condone making the act of living there a lot more work for no extra gain just to achieve this.

so you're the only person who plays this game?

You might want to spend a few more seconds reading my post, you seem to have missed a few pieces of information there.

Ahahahaha yeah we never see roaming gangs sitting on our undock at all, because the pubbies are so effortlessly blocked by our gatecamps and local chat.

Lets take a look at my intel channel for a second...

Name edited out > vigilant, ferox, rupture, thorax, myrmidon all on e-o gate in m-o now

Name edited out > Efterpi jumping E-OGL4 raptor

Name edited out > Dan Radermaker+21 in H-PA29* Sonnensystem

Somehow all of these pubbies managed to crash our impenetrable gatecamps emboldened by the power of local all in a 30 minute period.

Meanwhile I just wandered with a small cloaking gang into IRC space past their impenetrable gatecamp which is empowered by the strength of unstoppable local and killed some of their players traveling down their jump bridge highway.

Snot Shot of COAD fame regularly wanders into our space at will, right through the EC- and Taisy gatecamps, and Snot Shot isn't even good at this game.

Hey guys it turns out when all you do is ***** about how hard it is to kill things in null from the safety of "Never been to nullsec" it's hard to get kills out there :( :( :(

I know I've been saying this a lot; but have you tried not being bad at this game?

Tell us more about seeing ship types from local.

Who's complaining? But no one needs scouts in empty systems.

Why complain about having to use scouts if locals removed and u all ready use them

Cool. What's preventing you from doing this now?

Except if you're in a radar site he still has to scan to find you, it's not like he can just warp to anoms or belts. I used a Legion to run radar sites in Amamake and other similar places before I ever became a nullseccer, and I knew that I was fine as long as I kept an eye on dscan because anybody that wanted to find me would have to use probes to do so.


What makes you think we don't do this already?

You got me. It is totally fair that I'd only have a split second on d-scan to maybe catch someone between their gate cloak and covert cloak and if I don't get super lucky I'm dead unless this guy is totally incompetent. Balance.

Paying constant attention for hours is not a trivial amount of effort.

you seem to think that cloaky gangs wouldn't become the FOTM (again) if local was removed

you seem to think that players don't actually do things differently when game mechanics is changed

man you are hilarious

You must have something wrong with you if you think it's any harder keeping safe in w-space.

High sec: If you fit your ship properly, you will almost never get ganked, even if you're not paying any attention
Null sec: It doesn't matter how you fit your ship, you will get ganked if someone unfriendly finds you when you're not paying attention

Which one of these is more dangerous again?

You seem to be under the impression that d-scan is hard.

Isn't that exactly what you do if you're in w-space in a sig and probes pop up on dscan?
I mean come on now, you want us to go fight a probably hot dropper in our PVE ships? Yeah, that'll end well.

No, I'm merely saying it takes about as much effort as it does to watch d-scan.

The part you're conveniently ignoring is how in w-space the fact that cloaked ships don't show up on d-scan doesn't matter, whereas it does in nullsec.

ah so you live in a wormhole

naturally i'm going to take this opportunity and point out that wormholes have 1/20th the PvP of nullsec and would be much improved if we had the ability to bridge fleets into them, along with dropping titans and supercarriers

also introduce wormhole stabilizers so that we can bring larger fleets inside, wormholes are clearly too safe

I'd watch what they can actually do rather than what they say they'll do, if I were you.


It's still sufficient to give you a few seconds worth of warning before someone lands on you, whereas in nullsec the first hint would be someone uncloaking within 7.5km of you and scrambling you.

oh crap brb time to close one of the gates into UMI that just spawned

oh wait lol you can't actually do that in nullsec

The thing is, I can choose exactly when I'm going for my PI run, and my exposure pr run is literally 5-10 seconds. The risk is fairly minimal, or to put it another way, the attacker has to be pretty on it to even catch me, as opposed to when they're hunting you in anoms, where they can pick and choose the time at which they attack.


Sure, as long as you come up with a replacement mechanic which lets people actually live in nullsec as well, not just PVP in nullsec.

Tell me again how cloaked ships show up on d-scan.

So 2 hours ago, then?

yeah let me just go back to building capitals while hiding behind mass-limited entry points and free, undefeatable cynojamming

oh wait, that's what you do in wormholes

nullsec is the riskiest space, period

wormholes have a fourth the population of nullsec but 1/20th the ship kills

statistically that makes wormholes safer than hisec, let alone k-space 0.0

right, the only viable targets in wormholes are soft targets since any serious attack will lead to facing insurmountable numbers of capitals

also according to MIRIAM THUNDER some random small gang can obviously put up with a fleet of capitals and blap dreads hiding behind the dumbest mechanics in the game that make them near-immune

not my fault you guys haven't figured out that whole "fly capitals on alts, not mains" thing

more successful groups, however, have

"balgs" will get blapped away by dreads thanks for trying

Or we could just keep local and you could move to the wormhole.

I think it has been well established that we have plenty of combat going on. Nullsec has more combat that those empty looking wormholes.

And by "fixes" you mean "nerfs".


I'm pretty certain that outside of a few tweaks to curb such things as hulk ganking (I say curb, not try to completely destroy, but thankfully pubbies are dumb and still fit for max yield instead of putting tank on vOv), hisec itself hasn't needed that many changes. They're okay, I guess, but not needed.

Lowsec and nullsec, on the other hand, have been screaming harder and harder about fixes which, quite frankly, are required. Lowsec has had some changes to FW, but in true CCP fashion they completely ignored all feedback about how broken it was, until we exposed just how broken it actually was, and I'm not sure they've fixed the systems properly yet. I could be wrong, since I don't do FW, but whatevs.

Nullsec, however, needs a sov system which doesn't suck bags of dicks, it needs an industry which doesn't suck dicks, it needs reasons to stop going to hisec for your every need etc etc etc.

Under your system, how much time would you have to react to impending ganks, and how much effort would you have to expend to avoid it?

I think we are on the same page, I'm just farther along to where that activity ends up as isk in a player's pocket. And that isk can be pooled and directed towards communal things, like stations, jump bridges, system upgrades or even a local module.

Isk isn't a goal, it is a means to an end and a flexible one at that. If a corp wants to do tons of activity, and invest it all in faction fit marauders, that is there choice. If they want to convert all that activity into having local and a decent station, that should be an option too. And it doesn't have to be actual isk printed out of thin air. If that activity is all mineral production, same thing. The minerals could be directed towards stations and services or ships and bullets.


And isk is not meaningless in nullsec. Sure, there is still diminishing marginal utility, but all our isk is still counted and doled out. We learned the hard way what happens when people actually stop paying attention to where the isk is going.

Um. Nullsec isn't supposed to be about tourists, it's about giving and receiving war, and building your own space empire. I've no idea why you're trying to imply nullsec should be some tourist area.

**** that noise.


No. The nullsec population problem has nothing to do with us "shooting them too much", and everything to do with nullsec not being good enough in effort/reward comparisons when compared to literally every other area of the game.


It is a conflicting goal, but it is not a goal you meet by making the area you want more people to move to suck more.

I mean, we can do that now just to shut people like you up, I don't think we'll notice much difference if we were to go from less than 1% of player activity in our space to even less than that. People who are proponents of this change, however, will, because they'll find even less people to try to gank, and they'll be back whining about something else. Probably how dscan is overpowered, or JBs are used by bots or whatever the next excuse will be.

sounds for me like a nooblike scout/whatever

there are enough juicy/nice kills even with local. you just need to be fast enough.

you just sound like an IRC afk-cloaker who is disappointed that the carebears don't undock and let them kill by you.

fix your scouting/probing skills and you get anough nice kills. removing local will not change this thing. People will fly in active fleets you can't kill or use cheap ships with cheap fit cause its some kinda boring to kill t2 fitted drakes all the time.

I can see your nose from here.

Then I'll wait until they get tired of hiding and move any way. I guess some people are willing to be patient and some people aren't.

If I were to say "I want CCP to give me 1b isk/hour just for staying docked in nullsec" I would expect tons of opposition to that idea, because it's wrong, just like I'm against removing local without making changes to how nullsec works and how profitable it is in relation to the other sec areas to make it worth it for as many people as possible to move their isk-making alts back, because otherwise it's just because some people want to score some easy kills.

But then again, I do expect people to go "up the rewards in nullsec? but that can't happen without a subsequent increase in isk sinks, because the economy is already suffering from monetary inflation as it is, let alone if a majority of nullsec moved their isk-making alts back to nullsec and made enough isk to make it worth the extra effort", etc etc etc.

Well, you're in luck, that's precisely the system they're implementing. You should know of it as crimewatch 2.0 in combination with the new killrights system.

I mean, they were marketing it as a boon to bountyhunters when they first broached it, but apart from a few minor changes on who you can give the killright to, it's still the eve online: hisec vigilantism/trammel lite expansion.

Oh, and they're not trying to fob it off as a bountyhunter buff anymore either.